| A lawyer by
profession, academician by choice and a Marxist in belief, Professor Issa
Shivji was one of the architects of building Tanzania through Arusha
Declaration in the 1960’s. But today, Shivji, a close associate of Mwalimu
Nyerere in developing African Socialism, remains a disillusioned man. He is
distressed to see his dreams being lost as the country adopts liberal
policies of open market economy. Involved closely for over five decades in
the process of nation building, he has not only contributed towards policy
making but has also mobilised Tanzanian society during major events in
history of the nation like liberalization of economy and adoption of multi
party system. However, the country left behind socialism and adopted liberal
policies. And Shivji still identifies himself as a Tanzanian of the 60s and
holds a belief that some day things will be as they were. He shared his
vision of tomorrow and ideals of today in an exclusive interview with The
Express.
The Express: Being an architect of Tanzania as a nation, what is your
reaction of the country today?
Shivji: It is not the same. In the 60’s and 70’s when we Tanzanians
were inspired for building a better society, it was a human vision. We
shared it with like minded societies to create a better world, now we don’t
have anything like that. Our youth no larger have a social vision.
The Express: What do you think of the development policies of Tanzania
today?
Shivji: I don’t believe in it unless it is for the majority. I don’t
think our economy is targeted for national sustainability. This shows that
Mwalimu did not have the right people to carry on his work. We had a good
head of state at the top but when he left, people failed somewhere to carry
on.
The Express: Is this the reason we don’t have a national ideology right now?
Shivji: The Leaders don’t believe there is a need for an ideology.
Everything is being measured by market economy. Ideology is a long term goal
in building a better society. Market is not a social vision. For example you
want to increase economic growth rate by eight percent in five years, how do
you expect to mobilise people into doing so? You can’t have them march in a
procession with placards saying “Increase growth rate by 8%”. Not only we
lack social ideology but even the national vision has been lost. For a
colonial country, loss of nationalism is a loss of human in you. Look at our
young people, their education is geared towards imitating others rather than
creative thinking.
The Express: If you were born with the same mind in Present day Tanzania do
you think you would fit in?
Shivji: May be not. But I believe what we are facing now will pass.
Like Marx says, the middle class will someday mobilize itself to fight for
its rights.
The Express: Why do you have such a strong belief in Marxism?
Shivji: Marxism best explains the capitalist system, it explains the
situation of the Third World Country, it is not a dogma, it’s a method of
analysing society. It is not a religious scripture but architect of making
changes in society. You see Marxism comes from historical and social bases,
especially those found in oppressed situation.
The Express: Tanzania has also been oppressed, is that why we borrowed our
ideologies from Marxism?
Shivji: Tanzania did not adopt Marxism per se. Tanzanian philosophy
was based on pocket conditions according to Mwalimu Nyerere. Mwalimu’s
socialism was social democratic, of course it shared a plat form Marxist
socialism. In fact Mwalimu used to say If Marx was born in Sumbawanga he
would have adopted African Socialism.
The Express: If we had adopted Marxism Per se would we be more successful as
a nation?
Shivji: It can’t be explained hypothetically. We never managed to
detangle our economy from international circle, our economy remained
colonial. And now we are even more integrated into world system and we think
we are going towards the path of development. But in reality we have more
problems now then we had during single party system, with all foreign bodies
imposing economic policies on us.
The Express: Let us talk about Nationalization, this was something that left
some bitter feelings in the hearts of the Asian community in Tanzania, and
you at that time were involved in implementation of Arusha Declaration, were
you ever caught in a dilemma?
Shivji: Not at all. My support on Arusha Declaration was critical, we
had lots of debates and campaigns. For me it was never in terms of
properties of Asians being taken away, it was a matter of correct economic
policy where by the state owns major means of production. Initially
nationalization was meant to take control of larger means of production such
as banks and industries but later it spread to small retailers.
Nevertheless, nationalization policy was not meant to be racial.
The Express: Did you own any property that you had to part with?
Shivji: No. My father was never a successful “Duka wala” he was
always bankrupt.
The Express: If you were born with the same mind in the present day Tanzania
do you think you would fit in?
Shivji: I don’t know, may be not.
The Express: What do you normally do for your free time?
Shivji: I like reading classical literature.
The Express: Who is your favourite?
Shivji: No one in particular but I am more Dickens type than
Shakespear.
The Express: Tell us about your national service experience?
Shivji: Wonderful the only thing I hated was obeying commands without
questioning, I revolted that. A colleague of his during the National Service
training in Ruvu camp told The Express, Professor Shivji would spend most of
his free time reading from a large trunk of reading materials he carried to
the camp. When asked to shed more light on this information Shivji said “its
possible I like reading . Shivji was attending National service after
pursuing his Masters from London School of Economics. Recalling his days of
schooling at the University of Dar Es Salaam (then university of East
Africa), Shivji said “Those were really good times, This was the time of
anti Vietnam war and social movements we produced under cover magazines at
the campus, we held discussions and debates , it was so much fun. Young
people with absolute commitment.
The Express: How come you ate all the cake then there is nothing left any
more?
Shivji: We didn’t, your leaders ate them all. (laughter).
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